Since everyone else is getting one:

I'm also getting a tropi.us account. In this case, Venia.Silente@tropi.us. Feel free to add me.

(My other accounts are still available, but I'll be using jabber less and less as it tends to disconnect, lose scrollbacks and otherwise be quite a batch)

re: access to services.

People never could securely access chat from the web. That's kind of 1/3rd of the point of what happened, admittedly. The chatroom service and the web client allowed anyone to connect as anything and start posting without any certification. We had to cut the service end of that, which is the correct thing to do in any modern service, and now talks are ongoing to see if we can get the client side, Speeqe itself, up to speed.

In other news a reminder that the security adjustments we have made are per-user, so if you already have a XMPP / Jabber account anywhere (tropi.us, dukgo.com, etc), just send the account(s) name(s) to any of us operators and we can solve that part of your connection.

As to how to install and configure a client, we can't account for everything and everyone but we already provide the info on how to configure clients in general: WAAPT_Chatrooms [wiki] . Also valid for Pidgin. For anything else, just ask around and or enter the text "[name of program] XMPP account tutorial" in your preferred search engine. Failing that, just ask around, it's unlikely that the program you use is THAT unique. (But if it is and maybe you wrote it yourself, congratulations! ^.^)

Please look forward to it. ^.^

re: Aggron

(aka this)

I'd still have to see a good justification for it, because "oh they can use the three individually so they can just as well mix and blend" doesn't gel too well considering that that would apply to any Pokémon mixing X amount of moves of any types. Quoting what I said in Creative: Pokémon like Ludicolo learn variety projectiles / beams of Grass, Water and Fire types, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could eg.: mix them together into something like a Smash's Triple Finish. Or Pokémon that learn any four different types of projectile moves could pull off something like the Power Rangers' Quadra Blast.

Plus, Aggron would already be getting Bubblebeam, right?

re:flux

(get it? no? I'll go....)

Copy-pasting from chatroom conversation:

re: opening chatrooms

Of course I can't speak for Tangent here but...

I'm all for opening the chatrooms again to some form of -limited- unrestricted access. (Sounds weird mixing words like that, huh?) Just, not fully anonymous, and not before the issue behind the lock is solved, somehow. Probably something like having one or two designated chatrooms where anonymous access is enabled, but with certain restrictions, such as not posting links and stuff, and that are only usable so long as at least one mod is present.

One of the problems of course, is that all that is extra work development that it seems we don't have. We already had, at least since 2014, offers to rework or complete a web client (Speeqe or Jappix I guess) to access our chatrooms with login, but those efforts have gone nowhere. Not that they should have to go anywhere - the server's XMPP works perfectly well, pretty much any client can log in. Now, if people's ISPs are borking the connections somehow, that's something we can not fix.

There's also the issue that reopening access to "try and see if they've forgotten about us" is... likely not going to work. At least, not how we want it to work. We'd be back at being a listed service (and memory for bots is cheap) that people can spam to. Unless we change the server name and / or the chatroom names, those people already have access to our chatrooms, all they need to is realize the bots connecting no longer hang up (yeah, I'm assuming they have not given up. Bot resources are cheap).

And then, some day, a very ungraceful image is posted, and it will likely autoload for anyone who is here via Speeqe. And that will be... not nice. We'd be back at square one, pretty much.

Plus, at the end of the line, opening the chatrooms is a risk that falls upon Tangent tob basically have some sort of 24/7 vigilance, and the responsibility also befalls on him, what's worse, if something bad or worse happens, he might be even liable legally. I don't want him to have to risk that and I'm pretty sure neither want you.

(For "fun": The first time (yes there's been more than two) we had to deal with the... problem, we were back at having spam at about one week after. Not only that, we had anons entering some chatrooms and cheerily asking if we had gotten the pictures and what did we think of them. So yeah.)

Now, as I've mentioned before. We're way past the 90's. All respectable services request some form of identification, and we already have that. I think what we can do is, hopefully, work on completing a web client or just throwing in one of the presumably many already available ones, and connect them to our auth. But down the line, "anonymous" is not the way to go. Freeer access to us who we know are responsible and we know each other, yes, but therein lies the details: "we know each other" and thus the service needs to as well.

For potential fixes for the future...

Culture is a thing. We'd really need to not publicize links to our services at all; also some of our people log in from public or monitored computers maybe, can't be sure, so there's the considerations about that. There was a time back then where we had listed in the wiki not only the usual chatrooms but also some private ones, which is... not a good idea.

Development is also a thing, as mentioned. I'd throw my hands in but I'm busy. I'm pretty sure there's more than just two or three coders among us - if anyone wants to throw in their hands, I'm pretty sure their help would be welcome.

As for what can more immediately be done, my only suggestion would be to have a chatroom that can be opened to anonymous access at certain times of the day when we know there are mods with access to the server ready and available to tackle issues. But that assumes we want to sign up the mods to that extra work.

Re: Sarah as a Frontier Brain

My initial response is no. At least, not onscreen. However, I am pretty much fine with an onscreen upgrade in the *path* to become a Frontier Brain, which is the kind of thing that makes sense to happen and also doesn't lead to the issues actually talking the title has.

I could go on to explain my rationales for this, but that's more a plan for tomorrow since it has been a tiring day and it s already pretty late. So I'll have to wait. Still, most of my points I already made them in the chatroom, logs of which I'll leave linked here but of course I invite to read the whole thing.

* I'm okay with canon statements about the position being achieved in the future or as a retirement plan. (And that stands for pretty much everything of this like, such as Mezzo becoming a Dark-type Gym Leader)
* My problem specifically with the position is the kind of capacity that comes along with it. Including Legendaries and the like, it's something more for an NPC to have, not for an active player character.
* I'm all in for a in-universe formal upgrade on the path to become that eventual role, and I think it can be made to allow the characters involved to function, somewhat, in the capacities wanted.
* I am biased towards these kinds of goals being achievable so long as they do not have significant impact on the playable aspect of the RP (hence why I like eg.: "character retirement plan" or "close but no cigar" rather than a plain yes or no).
* I do not see good meta reasons for why these kind of things can not happen, though we might bump heads a bit with the longevity of the RP and its playerbase.

I know there is also precedent in the meta against playable characters getting an onscreen achievement that would put them on par with particularly discrete (as in: sparse) high rank achievement kinds, which is a thing I can totally understand from both an in-universe and meta perspective. The statement I have been given and that I can for the most part agree with is "'The big stuff our PCs achieve - like Champions, Frontier Brains, Gym Leaders, etc - all needs to be executed as an offscreen or future thing.'" Except my posture is a bit more open on what "offscreen" means.

(As a caveat, I am going to note here Champion seems to have the same connotation as in the Suocéverse, as in The Champion, the running one who is special without the need of a hat (hey, maybe they wore one in backstory youth), rather than merely "person who won last year's chief sports competition". Because many of our characters are already former winners of regional championship competitions, in fact we even made an arc for getting these kinds of achievements.)

Bottom line: "I would have said no, but I think it can be yes-ed in a different, more limited manner without any glaring issues", a matter on which I hope to exposition more tomorrow unless Bittersweet beats me to it.

re: Attributes #2

Regarding Attributes: one thing that I'd like to be considered is for the powers to be kept in check as not substituting Pokémon, which is usually my main concern when giving humans powers.

Beyond that, cursory thoughts on the powers described:

HoG:

* "Heightened empathetic senses" -- might be good to have an indication on how much heightened or in what direction. Also, maybe make sure that these senses can perceive emotions, not thoughts, since that falls into mind-reading. For example, it would not be normally possible for a HoG to perceive someone is lying if that person truly believes in their lie, or doesn't themself know it's a lie (eg.: people who have been scammed, or people who are only reporting information).

* "Ability to project emotions through goldspeech" -- As I have mentioned before, this one is dangerous since it can skirt on not only mind-writing but also personality supplanting and can be used for really nefarious purposes if left unchecked in the meta level (for example: making someone feel happy or proud that they are being tortured for information, making it easier for them to comply).

SoS:

* "Can use their high spiritual power to enhance their physical senses at will" -- As before, here the key is to define limits or directions. Can a SoS heighten their sense of hearing to the point of hearing something that can not reasonably be heard because of eg.: physical obstruction at the source? Shouldn't the heightened sense become saturated? If so, how soon and with what consequences?

MoC:

Nothing comes to mind specifically, since their abilities seem to mostly need the bounds of the other two to operate. One thing I want to be kept and become better structured if possible is whether and if so up to what point are their memories resistant to tampering not to them but to the exterior (eg.: timeline replacement, or even retconning / unpersoning).

Appendix of Explodium:

Hmmm... blast radius? :p

re: Politics

My Dear People:

There have been... developments in the situation of not the outside world but us, where one of our own community expressing their view and informing us of their political position and their voting (an action that can not be retracted, for any of us), which has prompted others in this community that maybe I should call out (really people, don't tempt me) by name to respond by throwing personal attacks and publicly announcing hate towards this person. Even with some "go die in a fire" in between the lines.

I'm not going to say please.

People: don't come to the RP chatroom for political attacks, for threatening others or for guilt-tripping anyone in our community.

We have mods. Tangent and Tagg... I presume wouldn't take it if it was in their power. But they are busy with the political situation, busy and stressed and worried as many of you guys also are. They are also US citizens and potential victims of this big picture. So today, tonight, they can't deal with our crap and really they shouldn't have to.

But I am, for good or bad, separated enough of all that context. And I have no qualms over acting in the most draconian  ways to stop callings for hate in their tracks and deal with the people involved.  There has already been misuse of the chatrooms by using a wild login to continue the political attack we were trying to rein in.

There's already an underlying issue in the most recent personal call outs and attacks in the chatroom due to politics, that I'd rather not get into ATM without the permission of the community members involved, but echo chambering this whole thing is going to make our days worse for everyone. Unfortunately the strong pro-LGBTQ+ population bias in our community has translated this time in a situation where the few who sided with Trump, for good or ill, have become the oppressed and in this case violently repressed minority. Even if they are trying to escape what they perceive as a greater evil.

Which is undeliciously ironic, since just a couple of pages ago we were announcing ourselves as an open space in Signup and Discussions. Where did all that go? Hot air? Cold sweat?

We all have the right to be mistaken. I know I likely am by deciding to deal with this as I am, but, see, I also see that in this case the alternative is worse.

But if anything, if you people really want to slant that way, we should punish people for their mistakes and failures of judgment, not on others'.

So, for this time, by all means do talk about anything you want in the RP chatroom. RP proper, videogames, kittens, oreos, whale sounds, JoJo, I don't care. But don't even hint at coming to personal attacks towards each other. Let alone on this whole political situation.

Because, unlike Tangent and Tagg, I do have the time and the mood to put my fist down over this.

If you people want to vent, we do have a place for that. But remember, without personal attacks. Or at least not on our own people. We do know the evil is out there, so if you guys really want to go fight evil, well, it's over there. Not here.

As an addendum: yes, the chatroom had been made public some time ago as experimentation, but really, it lasted pretty much nothing before an anon misused it. So, I've set it up to moderated again. Whoever that one was, you know what you did, and you know who you have damaged with it, one of the members of our community who most needed that feature. And you did it when we were trying and succeeding in clearing this issue.

For the time being, shame on you.

re: Alola, Sol y Luna

(aka This D!post)

Here's what little input I have on these matters, given that I have not played the games in full. (I'm still in the second island, enjoying the view)

In General Terms

I'm pro keeping us as a RP separate of which game of any would be "canon", mostly because I like the concept that we are our own thing. We need not to follow minutes introduced in the games / other parts of the franchise to a point that is constricting, given pretty much our entire point as an RP is to do the opposite.

Also because of that, I suggest we refrain from overwriting the canon game plots with our own. Meaning, the Sol/Luna protags as well as the various canon characters such as Lusamine did their thing if possible. We'd enter the picture either after that or as a joint / side action.

Tapus

I'm ambivalent over what do we do with them, but I'd suggest we meet halfways the options re: their dialogue possibilities, and say they can only speak directly "to Protagonists" (aka: Player Characters, canon PCs, etc). That also gives them a bit more of a mythical vibe that I personally like them having.

That does introduce the issue of Secondary Characters not being able to speak with them, but at the same time provides both a good opportunity and a good motive to use the Armbands or review other means in story if required.

Solleón y Allunara

Re: What do we do with their plot-relevant special location, I'm more partial to Lake of Moone + Altar of Sunne, if that can happen. If not, I suggest we mix and match the locations given what we did with G5.

The Æther Foundation (ÆF) and PEFE

Unless there's specific reason not to in terms of established worldbuilding, I'd suggest to have ÆF not have had serious / longstanding dealings with Pokéfutures and or PEFE in the past, but still have collaborated or competed in minor things. The main motivation I'd have behind this is detailed below, but this does also help us introduce minor characters and NPCs as having worked with ÆF without information or motivation issues, including reworking the backstories of secondary characters if their players deem it adequate.

Type: Null in short supply

Given there's an artificial limitation in the amount of them, I'd heavily suggest we follow that plotline. Taking advantage of eg.: making an alliance between ÆF and PEFE, I'd say let's keep the three in their current status, so no access for players, under the guise of ÆF and PEFE doing joint work in testing the third specimen for later production. That way, when the sequels / Stars / Eclipse / 4makes come and there likely is a new canon way to get access to a Type: Null, we can incorporate them much more easily. If the $NEXT_GAMES are taking too long to come or it's looking like they'll just sidestep the Type: Null shortage issue, then we can just fall back to our solution and have PEFE / ÆF release a first batch of Type: Nulls to the player characters for testing.

Presumably, this means Type: Nulls will not be allowed to take part in League-sanctioned battles for some time.

Yes, I'm aware that this proposal means no access for now. Yes, I think that is fairer for the entire playerbase given that's what we do anyways with mons who are one of a kind for the most part (eg.: Legendaries).

Dimensional Breaking

Due to issues of balance, I'd suggest to refrain players and signups from having "Faller" as part of their backstory. It can be examined as a future element, but having suddenly player characters who come from other universes, which themselves follow potentially different foundational rules of physics and stuff, can easily lead to godmodding, specialness and unneeded meta conflict.

In the future, as the generations come and go and these issues are better examined both in canon and in the meta, we might be able to change that, though I do not see the point of it.

Regarding the potential of Ultra Beasts appearing elsewhere in the world than Alola, I do not see a strong point against it. In fact, I'd surmise given the particular of dimensional breaking established in canon, they should be likely to also pop up in Sinnoh as well (hint hint 4makes cough cough).

Z-Moves in Battle

Re: using the Z-moves, I'd go with the second option of limiting to being used from a move the Pokemon's already used in-battle. Of course, in battles without the 4-moves limit we would discard that rule, though I'd suggest that for some time and as a form of testing and balancing, use of Z-Moves in battles without the 4-moves limit is publicly arranged by the involved players themselves in the meta.

Anabel Issues

While I'm mostly uninformed and choose to remain that way for some time as I play the game, I'm partial to whichever proposed solution does not break neither WAAPT canon nor game canon. Meaning, presumably, there would be two Anabels around, and IMO if possible in our 'verse the Game!Anabel should eventually be returned to her origin universe.

Champion Issues

Given that we do not intersect with the games plot, I do not see immediate harm in having an undetermined one of the canon PC's becoming the Champion. Kukui himself is a good second option. If the playerbase is OK with moving Jacob's title over that would be okay-ish as well I guess, as I have pending conversations to canonize RP!Silent as (surogate) Champion in his origin region.

Whichever way is chosen, it just needs to be kept track of so that players who go battle the Champion don't battle different Champions unless there's in-universe reason to.

Mega Dark

I personally like the whole deal with the Mega Evolutions now being given a darker, in certain ways more monstruous spin, and I personally feel it vibes well with my HC that Mega Evolution is basically Shadow but rebranded and remarketed "for good". But I've read that certain 'dex entries kinda take it too far and then again we are taking descriptions from a possessed Pokédex, so I'm more partial towards hinting more negative consequences (and motivations) for Mega Evolution, such as Heroic RRODs and having the mons actually have to spend time at the infirmary / rehab, rather than going full grimdark.

WAAPT Timeline

This is one of those cases where I strongly point to my "We Are Not The Games" intro. If we go with the canon story of Sol y Luna having happened mostly as depicted, there is no harm in coming late to the party, we'll just have to figure out the story. However, that is assuming we want to retain full "Real Time" flow of the RP, which is something I've read it has been contested a couple of times during discussion among the playerbase.

Haunted Pokédexes

Given we already have PEFEdexes and PEFEgons, I'd say a haunted Pokédex should not be too outside of the norm, if I guess we won't be able to expect them to work "correctly" right off the bat. Meaning: issues with compatibility or right out trolling will conveniently arise that help us with our plots :p

Ash-Greninja

I'd rather we keep ourselves far away from that specific transformation, in that hopefully Ash doesn't exist here, but I'm okay with developing our own character-specific transformations if it's accorded by the playerbase and it's not limited to Greninja. In a certain way, it would not be really any different from what we already do with stuff like custom moves. However, they will have to be checked for (faux, given their status)-balance at the meta.

Regarding “Hybrids”

Warning: Due to nature of discussion there might be spoilers ahead.

On the whole idea of Pokémon-human hybrids and/or "Human-Pokémon fusion" which seems to be not a fusion but more of an intermediate form, if the two ideas are one and the same, I'm going to be a temporary but tight no for the time being, due to a number of concerns.

As Corvus has pointed out, there are implications on the setting. The idea of an intermediate form between one's Pokéform and one's human form has the issue of giving humans powers, which is something we should be stricter on - this RP might have some elements of weirdness about it but they should be homologated to the core idea that this is about Trainers and their Pokémon, and the fight is to be taken via the latter. I recommend a (re?)reading of Every's Essay to those who might have missed it.

Moreover, these kinda of ideas can not just be thrown into WAAPT all of a sudden without adequate joint planning and Discussion beforehand, for which, of note, Discord is no substitute (there's no ability to trace or save logs there). It is important that new members wait before getting used to the idea and tone here before trying to push new ideas, and ideally talk it out with a group of regulars to smooth the concept and find out the gotchas early.

@EchoingSilence:

Sincerely, that's what happened the certain time we had someone just spring up a "suddenly superscience" on us without the appropriate consulting and we were left to pick up the mess, so of course, the adequate Discussion is important. It should not be a yes or a no before a good talk IMO.

(Selling point: even if it did take a lot of effort, that particular time was quite well salvaged)

The powers is a concern, yes, as is the apparent lack of balance. An intermediate form between two stable forms is likely not going to be too stable, nor too useful. "Worst of both world" kind fo thing. While I agree that it would be stronger than a human, it would not be with enough of a margin so as to make the difference worth it compared to, well, involving one's Pokémon. Let's remember our Pokémon are individuals on their own and not plot automatons here, so whichever plot that neeeds "Pokémon powers" can and should be carried out via the Pokémon.

Scientifically speaking (as in, if they were made to be via science / Evil Teams), such a "hybrid" / intermediate from would be quite shortlived, sterile, and probably extremely sensitive to traumatic injury, in the sense that it would not be able to heal "correctly" without help (think of a broken bone in the arm; which tissue should grow? The human one? The bird / reptile / plant / icecream one?) Can such an intermediate form even recover via the technology in a Pokémon Center? Bitters pretty much explained this before I could, but these are the kinds of things that have to be thought over.

Of course, added to this is that the "Humans with Powers" issue if left unchecked leads to the stories being about the X-Men or the Justice League instead of about Pokémon. But that's somethign I've expanded on before.

I'm not sure if al of this also touches upon the points that Corvus wanted to bring around but I think they are already present concerns.

Meta-wise, I'm a bit worried that this idea is being pushed in a rush and without adequate Discussion because of the recent news regarding USUM and wanting to weigh in and "cash grab" on the whole new Lycanroc Forme thing ajoin the werewolves / lycanthropy aspects currently in the RP  So on that front I'd also recommend a wait.

As for needing a Legendary to make the transformation work. In my opinion, while the idea itself is not bad, and presents usually adequate control for, it does lend itself to "tailoring the characters to the plot" in the sense that for this to work when a plot needs or wants to have the hybrids happen, it means the Legendary, a character of its own right, will have to be wrangled about and around for the purposes of the plot.

re: Lore with Krieg and Frieden

aka http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?di … 1328#33190

Regarding the idea of Krieg and Frieden being individuals reincarnated at already various iterations, I am tentatively opposed to the idea in its current form for a number of reasons. I am not opposed to the idea in the base line ("individuals reincarnated in iterations already"), but ather with the consequences and the justifications behind it.

First. This is described as a curse, but narratively speaking it's pretty much the opposite. Barring serious limiters, it's CursedWithAwesome. The two characters are granted basically infinite lives, which is at least infinite more than any other character in the RP can get. And there's no good, practical reason for this. Moreover, except for the potential of having to die to use it, there's no downsides. The post does not describe if these reincarnations come with any cost or limitation, or if they enjoy potential intrinsic dis/advantages such as keeping their memories or keeping traits and illnesses acquired from previous lives.

Second, it is described as them being cursed to be reincarnated forever by Yveltal. But Yveltal represents death and destruction, so why does them have purview over the "Life" part of a cycle of life and death? It would have required the intervention of Xerneas as well, or perhaps of some other Legendaries, so that they would be able to reincarnate in the first place. In my opinion, this gives Yveltal too much power. If I saw Yveltal had cursed someone, I would expect the effect to be something like "never be done dying", as in they can't react an afterlife after physically dying, or something.

2.5.- trying to fix this by involving another Legendary would basically make Krieg and Frieden personally and intrinsically involved with more than one Legendary. That by itself is not bad, but the relation would be far more intrinsic than what PCs usually have (more or less "have Legendaries on Speed Dial"). They would be getting too speshul as characters.

2.75.- No statement is made of how, or if, the curse blessing will be broken.  This should be the minimum required limiter for such a convenience, narratively speaking.

Third. The characters basically having had any number of potential lives means they can just like, be injected in whatever time displaced story we make, which while not normally out of the question in this RP, does give them particularly two more advantages for being present in any point in the timeline than most other characters in the RP have. Would they have some sort of limiter where, for example, they can't time travel to any time period when they have previously lived? Or something in that line?

This is basically regarding the idea as currently presented. I would like to see heavier discussion related to this in particular what are the limiters or downsides that would be present in this if it is a "curse".

One addendum concern that I have with Frieden in character is that I get the feeling sometimes like there's too much push to make the character Too Cool To Exist, and this proposal contributes to that feeling on my end, but I think that is something that I will bring to the forefront to discuss later if it becomes an actual problem.

re: New Moves and Abilities

(aka: Thunderstorm, Stormbringer and BB-Gallade

My general thoughts on the proposals as written in the original post:

* I feel mostly okay with the general idea of Thunderstorm, but I feel it needs some fixing and some nerfing. Basically right now it just reads like trying to make Rain more Sue-ish.

For specifics:

* I'm a no on it granting Castform dual-type. It should be Electric (or if you want something weirder, Flying). Water is already taken.
* I'm a no on it granting Weather Ball dual-type. I'm okay with it taking Water, Electric or perhaps something else relatable, but one type.
* I'm iffy on the ACC% boost being given to both Thunder (that already gets a boost from Rain) and Hurricane. I've exposed my rationale for that in the chatroom logs, the lt;dr is "a Thunderstorm is already a machinegun of Thunder/bolts firing offhand, unlike the other weather effects".
* Water types already get the boost from Rain Dance, so I am more-or-less-iffy on that one.
* Flying types taking that much percent damage is suspect to me considering they already suffer heavily from the existing design of weather-like and side battle effects, as in stuff like Covert Cobblestones (Stealth Rocks). And with Thunderstorm's proposed distribution, it's notorious over-punishment.
* I would be okay with a sort of degenerative / regenerative boost like recovering PP for Electric moves gradually; alas, we don't really use PPs.

Basically, I'd be potentially okay with this after a redesign.

Re: Stormbringer:

* Not like we'd be really using that anytime soon, and thus more tied to lore than mechanics, but shouldn't like, Zapdos, have access to the ability?

Re: Battle Bond Gallade:

I don't have any cons with the idea as presented,  Also completely agreeing with @Bittersweetnsour's comment on Psycho Cut and the proposed ratio.

As a Battle Bond Pokémon, a BB-Gallade specimen should not be able to Mega Evolve. (This one has already been decided before, just making the note of it)